Guests' creative control

[bboswell]

I was just looking at the script for the "Your money or your life" episode. I noticed that there were a few things crossed out here or there, but when Ronald and Benita showed up, there was almost an entire page or two crossed out and re-written.
Does this mean that perhaps the Colemans had a certain amount of creative control over what they said, and perhaps wanted things changed because they wouldn't have said something a certain way?

That also made me wonder about other guest stars... or when Jack would BE a guest star. Do the writers for the "host" show put all of the words in the mouths of the guest, or is there some collaberation going on?

(It's not uncommon to hear someone ad lib, "What a great line you gave me" or something like that when being a guest)

Any ideas?

[shimp scrampi]

I know that some of Jack's guests, like Fred Allen and Groucho Marx for sure were actually invited to sit in on the writing sessions and comment much like Jack himself would. Whether the guests who were not so much comedy professionals (Claudette Colbert or Isaac Stern, for example) got the same treatment, I'm not sure, and kind of doubt it.

I see your point though - sometimes when Jack is guesting on other shows, his character can seem just very slightly "off". Perhaps that's due to writers that didn't often write for Jack. I've noticed that on a Burns and Allen guest shot or two. On other guest shots, they actually use bits and gags that originated on the Benny show (can't think of an example at the moment). So if Jack's own writers ever did material for other scripted shows, I'm not sure. Surely they did for interview shows.

Another thing to consider is that some of Jack's writers eventually moved on to other shows - there's a Bing Crosby radio show guest appearance where Jack says "your writers used to work for me, you know!" - or Milt Josefsberg would write Jack's guest episodes on Lucy's later TV shows. So there would be some writing continuity there.

[LLeff]

I was just looking at the script for the "Your money or your life" episode. I noticed that there were a few things crossed out here or there, but when Ronald and Benita showed up, there was almost an entire page or two crossed out and re-written.
Does this mean that perhaps the Colemans had a certain amount of creative control over what they said, and perhaps wanted things changed because they wouldn't have said something a certain way?

I'm presuming that you were at UCLA looking at the script. Remember that those were the scripts used on the air. Some changes were made between the East and West Coast broadcasts of the show, tightening up jokes, cutting stuff that didn't work, etc. It's possible that the show might have run long the first time, so they whacked the Colman's scene.

[bboswell]

Aha! That is probably it. (I was actually looking on the tobaccodocuments.org site, but I'll bet the same situation applies.) That would also possibly explain one script, perhaps even the same one, where Mary's lines were entirely given to Rochester. (Due possibly to Mary's sudden illness, or perhaps a severe case of "Mic Fright" at the last minute.)

I wondered why they didn't bother to simply type out the changes, but the very few hours that would have elapsed would explain that too.

[Gerry O.]

I see your point though - sometimes when Jack is guesting on other shows, his character can seem just very slightly "off". Perhaps that's due to writers that didn't often write for Jack. I've noticed that on a Burns and Allen guest shot or two. On other guest shots, they actually use bits and gags that originated on the Benny show (can't think of an example at the moment). So if Jack's own writers ever did material for other scripted shows, I'm not sure. Surely they did for interview shows.

Another thing to consider is that some of Jack's writers eventually moved on to other shows - there's a Bing Crosby radio show guest appearance where Jack says "your writers used to work for me, you know!" - or Milt Josefsberg would write Jack's guest episodes on Lucy's later TV shows. So there would be some writing continuity there.

Good observation....I agree with you, many of Jack's guest appearances on other shows (both on radio and TV) seem forced and fall flat because it's very obvious that the hosting show's writers are TRYING to write Benny-type jokes (cheapness, vanity, etc.), but because they're not JACK'S writers, they don't have the skill and familiarity necessary to pull these gags off very well.

Many of Jack's guest appearances on Lucille Ball's TV shows are considered true classics....and I've always guessed that that was because of Milt Josefberg's involvment in the script writing. The gags given to Jack (as well as the gags ABOUT him) on these Lucy shows are very natural, and at times you feel almost like you're watching an extension of Jack's own program.

[bboswell]

I see your point though - sometimes when Jack is guesting on other shows, his character can seem just very slightly "off". Perhaps that's due to writers that didn't often write for Jack. I've noticed that on a Burns and Allen guest shot or two. On other guest shots, they actually use bits and gags that originated on the Benny show (can't think of an example at the moment). So if Jack's own writers ever did material for other scripted shows, I'm not sure. Surely they did for interview shows

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about, Jack or other guests seeming "off."

I read somewhere that Groucho Marx had trouble getting a radio show, (This was pre- You Bet Your Life.) After hearing him guest on an episode or two, (NOT his Jack Benny appearances notably,) I can see why. He did not seem funny at all. I attributed this to writers wanting to write Marx Brothers comedy material, and not being a Marx. Groucho never seemed comfortable with scripted lines live on the air. (Hmm, maybe he WAS related to Mary after all!) Even in Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel--which was taken largely from their vaudeville act and movies-- his delivery and timing seemed off. But when you listen to You Bet Your Life, he is in his element: Live, off the cuff humor that shows that he is an incredibly sharp guy.

The same goes for Jack too. It seems writers couldn't wait to write Jack Benny material. (I've often commented that Jack's character is so classic that he would get laughs for other comedians on other shows. When you need a laugh, just make a "Jack Benny" cheap joke.) The difference being that Jack wasn't ill-at-ease with the scripts from other writers, and his timing was, as always, right on.

[shimp scrampi]

The one example from Burns & Allen where I think Jack's character rather than his performance seems off is the 11-9-43 show where Gracie catches Jack in a beauty shop and she spends the rest of the program threatening to notify the papers unless Jack agrees to let George sing on Jack's program. It seems out of character since Jack never expressed any embarassment about his vanity or 'feminine' pecadilloes on his own show, he would probably take out an ad in the paper himself on the Benny show if they paid him a buck to say "Jack Benny gets his toupee done here" It shows what a subtle balance of traits the Jack Benny character really required.

Jack also commented that he wouldn't take guest stars on his own program if he & the writers couldn't come up with a really good concept to use the guest in. So, for the most part, I don't think guests come off strangely on Jack's show. The exception to this might be the very last years of the TV show where the "generation gap" started to show - Peter Paul & Mary, etc.

[Howdy2]

I read somewhere that Groucho Marx had trouble getting a radio show, (This was pre- You Bet Your Life.) After hearing him guest on an episode or two, (NOT his Jack Benny appearances notably,) I can see why. He did not seem funny at all. I attributed this to writers wanting to write Marx Brothers comedy material, and not being a Marx. Groucho never seemed comfortable with scripted lines live on the air. (Hmm, maybe he WAS related to Mary after all!) Even in Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel--which was taken largely from their vaudeville act and movies-- his delivery and timing seemed off. But when you listen to You Bet Your Life, he is in his element: Live, off the cuff humor that shows that he is an incredibly sharp guy.

Groucho managed to get a number of radio shows, but none of them lasted very long until You Bet Your Life. I'm quoting this from memory, and it's been described in detail in books by Groucho and by his son Arthur, but in a nutshell, Groucho had been invited to do a gig on a Walgreen Drugs special, at a time when he had lost another show. Feeling sorry for himself, he had to sit around, cooking his heels, until he was to go on midway through the show, which was running late.

In the script, Bob Hope was supposed to be running a radio station in the middle of the Sahara Desert. When Groucho's turn came to go on, Bob Hope delivered the scripted line, "Groucho Marx, what are you doing in the middle of the Sahara Desert?" Groucho departed from the script and said, "Desert hell, I've been standing in a drafty corridor for a half hour." Bob Hope dropped the script, too, and the two of them ad-libbed hillariously for several minutes. Fortunately, the show was pre-recorded, since some of the remarks were certainly not fit for broadcast in the 1940s.

As it happened, John Guidel was in the audience. He went backstage to talk to Groucho, suggesting that the reason Groucho hadn't succeeded in radio was that he needed a show that allowed him to ad-lib. Groucho was skeptical of a quiz show format, but he realized he hadn't succeeded with anything else, and John Guidel had been quite successful with Art Linkletter. And so, You Bet Your Life was born, and the rest is history.[/quote]

[bboswell]

Groucho managed to get a number of radio shows, but none of them lasted very long until You Bet Your Life. I'm quoting this from memory, and it's been described in detail in books by Groucho and by his son Arthur, but in a nutshell, Groucho had been invited to do a gig on a Walgreen Drugs special, at a time when he had lost another show. Feeling sorry for himself, he had to sit around, cooking his heels, until he was to go on midway through the show, which was running late.

In the script, Bob Hope was supposed to be running a radio station in the middle of the Sahara Desert. When Groucho's turn came to go on, Bob Hope delivered the scripted line, "Groucho Marx, what are you doing in the middle of the Sahara Desert?" Groucho departed from the script and said, "Desert hell, I've been standing in a drafty corridor for a half hour." Bob Hope dropped the script, too, and the two of them ad-libbed hillariously for several minutes. Fortunately, the show was pre-recorded, since some of the remarks were certainly not fit for broadcast in the 1940s.

As it happened, John Guidel was in the audience. He went backstage to talk to Groucho, suggesting that the reason Groucho hadn't succeeded in radio was that he needed a show that allowed him to ad-lib. Groucho was skeptical of a quiz show format, but he realized he hadn't succeeded with anything else, and John Guidel had been quite successful with Art Linkletter. And so, You Bet Your Life was born, and the rest is history.

I love that piece of radio history. I finally found a recording of the show that went over the air, but I have had a difficult time locating the original "uncut" recording, which, I have heard, still exists somewhere.

I have also heard differing stories about the material itself. Someone said it was squeaky-clean as could be, but mostly I have heard that it was stuffed full of double entendres. (I tend to believe the latter.) I believe Arthur Marx's book has a partial transcript.

One source of the story had Guidel coming up to Groucho after the show and saying"Groucho, could you make those kind of witty ad-libs all the time?"
Groucho replied: "Mr Guidel, I would find it nearly impossible not to do so."

[Howdy2]

I love that piece of radio history. I finally found a recording of the show that went over the air, but I have had a difficult time locating the original "uncut" recording, which, I have heard, still exists somewhere.

I haven't heard that recording, but I've heard that it's included in a recent DVD of You Bet Your Life episodes.

I have also heard differing stories about the material itself. Someone said it was squeaky-clean as could be, but mostly I have heard that it was stuffed full of double entendres. (I tend to believe the latter.) I believe Arthur Marx's book has a partial transcript.

Not the book I have.

One source of the story had Guidel coming up to Groucho after the show and saying"Groucho, could you make those kind of witty ad-libs all the time?"
Groucho replied: "Mr Guidel, I would find it nearly impossible not to do so."

The account in Arthur's book has Guidel coming back stage and asking, "Groucho, why don't you have a show of your own?" and Groucho saying something nasty. Guidel, not to be put off, answered his own question.