How are the spinoffs?

[shimp scrampi]

Even more than Mary's abrasiveness - Jack and Mary as a couple would undermine the essential, but rarely discussed aspect of Jack as a fundamentally lonely, isolated character. Everyone's usually against Jack, or one step away from undermining him in some way! That "tragic" aspect of Jack's character is what makes him ring true a lot of the time. Making a cozy "domestic" Jack would tip that balance. I am happy they did the fantasy shows though, where Jack and Mary have a horrible married life! Guess that shows what the writers thought of the concept.

[Alan]

I believe that even JB (via the autobio sections of Joan's book) noted his character's sad aspects (and if i remember correctly, was surprised that this wasn't much picked up on).

I was surprised when i read that (as well as previous post by scampi-sp?), becouse i never perceive the character as being (even in an underneath it all/limited way) an unfortunate/dysfunctional person... - cheap, vain etc, yes, but a character happy with themselves and the way they are running their life, enjoying their work-even if often exasperated, knows he is financially successful, energetic, focussed, surrounded by friends (hey, i am constantly insulting+being insulted by my closest buddies) and meeting fascinating celebrity guests.......etc.. etc...

[Gerry O.]

I don't know if Jack's character was as much "sad" as he was "insensitive". Celebrities like the Colmans, Claudette Colbert, etc. would avoid Jack, not invite him to parties, etc.....even verbally insult him....but Jack could never seem to realize (or at least admit to himself) that these people really didn't like him! Jack always thought and acted as if these people were his closest and dearest friends!

I think that's what makes many of those "guest star" episodes so funny. If these celebrities insulted or avoided Jack and he felt badly about it, it would come off as sad and pathetic....but because Jack is such a thick-headed CLOD who continues to force himself on these people no matter WHAT they do or say to him, it makes the whole situation (and Jack) hilarious!

[shimp scrampi]

Right, it basically works as a subtext - Jack is isolated and unliked, but it is all his own fault, and he doesn't let it bother him. When Jack (very rarely) made the character's loneliness explicit - as in the New Years' episodes that I characterized as being pretty sappy in another post - it doesn't work and just becomes depressing.

[LLeff]

Right, it basically works as a subtext - Jack is isolated and unliked, but it is all his own fault, and he doesn't let it bother him.

Just to put my two cents in this interesting discussion...

I think there's also the important point that Jack isn't being malicious in his "insensitivity". He genuinely thinks that he can play the violin well, is even a little insecure about his ability to rise to the "class level" of the Colmans and hires an English butler to impress them, can logically defend his own stinginess, etc. Compare this to Mary's verbal barbs that often could be characterized as "malicious".

Eddie Carroll made a magnificent comparison in a recent Jack Benny Times column, saying that Jack's character is the human equivalent of Charlie Brown, trying to make his way as best he can, but Lucy/Mary will always pull the ball away from him.

[shimp scrampi]

Eddie Carroll made a magnificent comparison in a recent Jack Benny Times column, saying that Jack's character is the human equivalent of Charlie Brown, trying to make his way as best he can, but Lucy/Mary will always pull the ball away from him.

You know, I've often thought that Jack Benny, Charles Schulz and a couple of other Midwestern humorists (Bob Newhart also comes to mind)had a lot in common - and it in part might be cultural. It's this delicate balance of the world being against a character who is essentially earnest but something of a misfit - coupled with a "comedy of manners" humor where a lot is derived from a tension between people being out of the blue rude, hostile or undermining - and the protagonist's desire to fit in, for everyone to be happy and not rock the boat. If you spent any time in the Midwest or grew up there like I did - it really resonates.

This is an aspect of Midwestern sensibility that is totally different from the Garrison Keillor "folksy" schtick, by the way, which I don't really identify with.

The Mary Tyler Moore show - set in Minneapolis - also totally nailed this genre of humor. Mary's just a nice, earnest girl whose desire to keep everyone happy is totally thwarted by her nutso friends and colleagues.

[Maggie]

Wasn't "The Halls of Ivy" also a spin-off of sorts? I have only listened to a few eps, and not for a while, but i recall enjoying the segments featuring the starring Colmans ( but don't the shows also include some incongruous "variety" segments?).

'The Halls of Ivy' wouldn't technically be considered a spin-off because while Ronald Colman and Benita Hume appeared on Jack's show, they were essentially playing themselves; Ronald Colman, the movie star and his wife. On both the radio and television series of 'THOI', they were William Todhunter Hall and Victoria Cromwell Hall.

[Alan]

I think CB and Newhart (and 'midwestern" humor in general ) are apt comparisons.

I like the early "aggressive"Schultz strip reprints (which i find very unlike the tame CB strips i grew up with) and love the early 60's Newhart recordings. (tho my personal recommendation for best current comedy CD's are by Chris Rock) .

Re:Keillor-I don't get it either......I LOL'd when "the Simpsons" were at a Keillor show and Bart turns to his family and says something along the lines of " what the heck is this audience laughing about?"

[shimp scrampi]

Re:Keillor-I don't get it either......I LOL'd when "the Simpsons" were at a Keillor show and Bart turns to his family and says something along the lines of " what the heck is this audience laughing about?"

Even better - (they're watching it on TV) - Homer proceeds to physically beat the TV telling it, "stupid TV, be more funny!"

Though it isn't my personal cup of tea, I do give Keillor credit for managing to pull off a successful old school comedy-variety weekly radio program in this day and age.

[LLeff]

It's this delicate balance of the world being against a character who is essentially earnest but something of a misfit - coupled with a "comedy of manners" humor where a lot is derived from a tension between people being out of the blue rude, hostile or undermining - and the protagonist's desire to fit in, for everyone to be happy and not rock the boat. If you spent any time in the Midwest or grew up there like I did - it really resonates.

You know, I never thought a lot about that, but I think you've nailed an important point. I'm from Grand Rapids, Michigan (once the Jell-O capital of the world) and I know exactly what you're saying. It's also captured in Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" in the split-screen between Annie's goyishe family and Allen's Jewish family. I have long resonated with Annie's line that "The greatest sin in our family was to raise one's voice." So in a way, having characters be (to borrow your words) "rude, hostile, or undermining" can be rather cathartic. However, it's not so over the top as to be dangerous or anyone to get severely hurt.

This is an aspect of Midwestern sensibility that is totally different from the Garrison Keillor "folksy" schtick, by the way, which I don't really identify with.

I've had a lot of people over the years tell me that I needed to listen to more Keillor. But what I have heard hasn't encouraged me to hear more--not to say that it's not good material, it just doesn't resonate with me. I think in a way it's like comparing Jack Benny to, say, Lum and Abner.

It also goes back to Gilbert Seldes' complaint that Jack's show was too mean-spirited, which the cast answers on their 2-24-46 by doing a parody of their own show where everyone is unbearably polite to each other. I don't think anyone could accuse Garrison Keillor of being mean-spirited, which makes the whole tone of the comedy "safe". You have to play off ironies rather than danger. It's like watching the original Star Trek, and knowing that Mr. Spock is always going to be saved by some miracle in the end because they never killed off a major character.

On a semi-related (and dated) note, one of the Keillor references that made me laugh the most was in a cartoon by someone else. It showed a quiet town with a speak balloon over it, saying, "It's been a quiet week down in Lake Wobegon, except for the mass slayings..." The caption was "Natural Born Keillors".

[shimp scrampi]

I grew up just down the road near Lansing, Mich - then later moving to the SF Bay Area is when that regional humor difference really struck me. Fellow midwestern expatriates and I had some long discussions on figuring out why people seemed so different! The midwestern thing also has this underlying strain of being judgemental - which is another reason why the Annie Hall scene is such a great example - also why Jack's character gets laughs with the Colemans and others trying to maintain their cool in Jack's presence while going on tirades about his awfulness when he's not there.

Now that I live in southern Virginia - there's a whole other aspect to that social comedy of manners - basically the underlying judgementalism is gone. Despite the red-state caricature, in general people don't honestly care (on an individual basis) how freakish or bizarre you are, so long as you're friendly and not pushy about whatever your quirks might be. In the midwest it's all about maintaining the facade and dishing later.

[shimp scrampi]

Of course I forgot to add:

----And that's what I like about the South!

[bboswell]

This morning my wife and I were listening to the Dennis Day Show episode where Dennis was telling the story "The Boy Who Sang for the King"...

Dennis: This was a long, long time ago.
Child: Did he sing over the radio?
Dennis: No, this was long before radios and phonographs and moving pictures.
Child: (awestruck) Before Jack Benny?!?!

My wife just about had mouthwash coming out her nose.

Moral: Don't gargle when Jack Benny jokes are possible.